Diese Passage von Jordan Peterson von „Maps of Meaning“ zu „Warum sind nicht mehr Frauen in Machtpositionen?“ fand ich ganz interessant:
Hier erst einmal das Video dazu:
und der Text:
I’ll tell you what my experience has been like working with women, you can take it for what it’s worth. And I’ve worked with many women who achieved the highest levels of their profession. I don’t just mean in academia, but in a number of different fields. This is what happens. We’ll take the typical women. Conservative women, because their more technical, Conscientious. Not particularly open. So they’re dutiful people, they’re existing within the structures of their society. So I’ll take female lawyers as a classic example. They’re very good at high school, very hard working, very intelligent, but very dutiful and often rather agreeable. That’s important
Das wären dann Fähigkeiten und Persönlichkeitsmerkmale. Das Mädchen im Schnitt (!) fleißiger und angepasster sind ist eine Erfahrung die schon einige Lehrer so kommuniziert haben.
Because it means to some degree they want to please and they’ll do what they’re told and so the reason that the women are outperforming men in elementary, junior high, high school, and university is cause their more likely to be obedient.
Das deutsche Wort „Gehorsam“ wird da als Übersetzung angeboten, klingt aber aus meiner Sicht etwas hart. Ich würde angepasster vielleicht besser finden?
And I know that to some degree because I did an analysis of students in Quebec and found out that one thing that predicted grades over and above intelligence and conscientiousness was agreeableness and agreeable people got better grades than their IQ and conscientiousness would predict. And that’s particularly negative for men.
Das ist durchaus interessant. Frauen schneiden in der Tat im Bereich Agreeableness bzw „Verträglichkeit“ bei den Big 5 besser ab, der Unterschied ist im Schnitt 0,4
Das sieht dann so aus:
So imagine this what’s happened. So you’re a borderline student and you’re a bit rebellious and anti-social. I’m gonna fail you. Like you’re right on the cusp. Don’t like you much. You fail. You have exactly the same grade profile but I like you. You get to move ahead, you don’t. And so one of the things that’s dividing men from women as they progress through school is the degree to which they’re agreeable. Now that works out to some degree for women in so far as the agreeableness moves them forward but they encounter the negative elements from being agreeable later in their career.
Dazu hatte ich hier auch schon mal etwas.
Anyways. The women are very good in high school then they go to college, they’re very good in college, they nail their damn grades they do their studying, they get their A’s and they ace their LSATS, they’re smart too. Then they’re off to do their articling and they’re really really good at it. And then they get offered an associate position and they’re really really good at it and then by the time they’re 30 they make partner.
Hier setzt dann so ungefähr das Video ein, nachdem die Ausgangssituation mit sehr guten Frauen, die sehr gute Jobs angeboten bekommen, dargestellt worden ist.
And let’s say they’re in high pressure, high paying jobs. 250 thousand dollars, three hundred thousand dollars, five hundred dollars an hour. Okay what’s your life like? You work all the time. Period. Seventy hours a week, seventy five hours a week, flat out. And you don’t get to make any mistakes. And if your client calls you at three in the morning on Sunday, you say I’m really glad to hear from you, because if you don’t there’s some hot law firm in New York that’ll take your client in a moment’s notice and your client is paying you whatever the firm, 750 dollars an hour, of which you get 350, and what they want is an answer about something complicated, right bloody now!
Das ist, wie schon häufiger ausgeführt, in der Tat etwas, was in den feministischen Darstellungen entschieden zu kurz kommt: Hohe Positionen sind nicht einfach nur Macht und Geld. Sie sind auch sehr viel Arbeit, sehr viel Druck, sehr viel Einschränkung des Privatlebens.
And you can say all you want that fact that women have a difficult time with that because it’s a male dominant patriarchy, any female lawyer who’s hit 30 and is partner, and has any sense knows that’s complete bloody rubbish! Its market determined right to the core. What happens to the women when they’re in their 30’s . They all leave the high end law firms! Why? Because who in their right mind would want to live like that? That’s the issue right? Once you make about Sixty Thousand Dollars a year for your family, but let’s say for you personally, additional income has zero impact on your quality impact of life. Zero! So why work over eighty hours a week? Well men will do it. Some men, very few. A handful of hyper competitive men who are obsessed with hitting the pinnacle of the given dominance hierarchy they’re in will happily work eighty hours a week. And they’ll forego everything else: relationships, family, children. Way in the second category.
Da sind viele wichtige Sachen drin:
- Viele hohe Jobs sind enorm einschränkend für alle anderen Sachen ausser dem Job. Um so höher man bei Gehalt etc kommt um so eher beherrschen sie das gesamte Leben.
- Das kann die Lebensqualität dann herabsetzen, wenn man nicht genau dafür lebt.
- Wenige Männer und Frauen wollen so leben. Der Anteil der Männer, die das wollen ist allerdings höher als der der Frauen
- Dominanzhierarchien, die das erstrebenswert machen, sind in Bezug eher männlich, Frauen bilden ihre Hierarchien im Schnitt anders aus. Sexuelle Selektion auf Statusaufbau kann hingegen gerade Männer hervorrufen, die so etwas genau wollen und die da gerade richtig aufleben.
- Frauen sind weitaus weniger bereit für den Job alles andere aufzugeben, sie haben zudem auch den Nachteil, dass Status sie nicht im gleicher Weise attraktiv macht wie Männer.
And so those men are very difficult to live with too because they’re so obsessed with their career, it’s hard to have a relationship with them and maybe they don’t have much of a relationship with their kids, but they’re damn good at what at they do. They’re smart, disciplined, and they’ll work non-stop all the time. It’s like an obsession and that’s the sort of people who run things!
Ich kenne entsprechende Leute, in vierter Ehe verheiratet, weil sie die Herausforderung des Jobs lieben und das immer ihre Priorität war, mit schlechten Verhältnis zu ihren Kindern. Aber dafür hoch angesehen in ihrem Bereich. Das muss nicht immer so sein, es gibt sicherlich auch welche, die den Spagat besser hinbekommen. Aber das bedeutet eben auch, dass man den Laptop mit in den Urlaub nimmt und dort eine gewisse Erreichbarkeit hat. Ich kannten einen genialen Manager, der mit Familie und kleinen Kindern zuerst immer Urlaub auf den deutschen Nordseeinseln machte und mindestens einmal von dort aus während des Urlaubs ins Büro fuhr, weil er noch schnell was selbst machen musste, bis seine Frau entschied, dass sie nur noch Flugreisen buchte, mit einer gewissen Mindestflugzeit.
Well they’re often disagreeable too because you wanna manage people? Really? They’re not gonna like you. You know and it’s not an easy thing to not be liked and if you’re an agreeable person and women are more agreeable than men. It’s quite painful to be disliked, but if you’re in a managerial executive position the probability that people are going to like you is quite low. Now if you’re a real son of a bitch they’re gonna dislike you even more but it’s those positions are very stressful partly because of the interpersonal dynamics and their all so incredibly Incredibly competitive.
Auch das ist etwas, was schon als Thema häufig verarbeitet wurde: Wer aufsteigt, der ist nicht unbedingt mehr derjenige, der mit allen gut befreundet sein kann, weil er jetzt der Boss ist:
So the women hit that at thirty and they’re completely qualified and the law firms are bloody desperate to keep them because it’s really hard to find highly qualified people especially after you’ve put all that time into training them especially if they’re also good at bringing in business. The law firms trip over themselves to try to keep them. They can’t. The women think “Why in the world am I doing this? Why in the world would anyone in their right mind do this?” Especially because they’re often married by that point too and generally they’ve married a husband who makes as much money or more than them so they don’t need the damn money! And so they think more there’s more to life than this, which is exactly the right thing to think. So they go find a job that’s nine to five and controllable so that they hire a nanny and have some kids and have a life. And it’s like Yes! That’s the intelligent thing to do.
Es ist schwer ihm da zu widersprechen, dass das eigentlich die schlauere Art ist zu leben. Und ich kenne auch tatsächlich einige Frauen, die es genau so gemacht haben. Jedenfalls mehr als Männer. Aus der freien Wirtschaft in eine Behörde ist das super beliebt.
So we’ve got things backwards in our culture, we’re thinking at least in part, why aren’t there more women in positions of power? Wrong question. The right question is. Why are there any men at all who want those positions of power? Because it’s not just positions of power. You have be such a knot head to think that. “oh it’s a position of power” It’s like sure. But it’s a position of overwhelming responsibility and if you make mistakes you’re done! Right. It’s not like you occupy the position of power and everyone does what they’re told all the time and you’re life is easy. It’s like forget about that. People are on your case to do exactly the right thing all the time, one hundred percent of the time! And maybe you want that and maybe you don’t. What I don’t know what people think is these people are all sitting in their offices with their feet on their desks, smoking cigars and oppressing the world. It’s like that isn’t how it works. Those people, they work flat out all the time! And it’s fine if that’s what you want and some people are like that they’re hyper industrious people from a trade perspective. No matter where you put them. If you put them in a forest with an ax, they just wander around chopping down tress nonstop, right? Cause it’s built into them
Ich glaube auch, dass bestimmte Workaholics und Machtmenschen einfach gar nicht anders können.
But if you wanna have a balanced life and you should want that. Because the other thing you’ll find and this is God’s gospel truth, the older you get if you have any sense at all, the more important your family is to you. Like the utility of your career maybe that peaks around 35 or 40 and it starts to decline pretty rapidly after that and what happens if you’re fortunate you have someone in your life that you love that you’ve woven yourself together with and have some kids so that you have something to do from the time you’re 50 to the time you’re 80. So it’s a real mistake, it’s a barren future without children man. I can tell you that it’s a real mistake and so we do a terrible job of putting that image forward and saying “Yeah!”.
Und gerade wenn Kinder das sind werden viele auch merken, dass das Büro nicht alles ist. Nicht alle natürlich. Aber auch hier würde ich schätzen: Mehr Frauen als Männer.
Because women have access to the birth control pill and can compete in the same domains as men roughly speaking, there is a real practical problem here. It’s partly an economic problem now. When I was roughly your age it was still possible for a one income family to exist! Well you know that wages have been flat except in the upper one percent since 1973! Why? Well it’s easy. What happens when you double the labor force? What happens? You have the value of labor. So now we’re in the situation where it takes two people to make as much as one did before. So we went from a situation where women’s career opportunities were relatively limited to where they were relatively unlimited and there were two incomes to where and so women could work to a situation where women have to work and they only make half as much as they would’ve otherwise and now we’re gonna go into a situation, this is the next step, women will work because men won’t. And that’s what’s coming now. So there was an Economist article, that fifty percent now of boys in school are having trouble with basic subjects and you look around you in universities you can see this happening. I’ve watched it over decades.
Wäre interessant mal zu untersuchen, welchen Einfluss Frauenarbeit auf die Löhne hatte. Insoweit führen Feministinnen ja ganz gerne an, dass die Löhne in jedem Bereich sinken, in dem viele Frauen einsteigen. Aus ihrer Sicht natürlich aus Sexismus. Aber es sind eben dann auch deutlich mehr Arbeitnehmer auf dem Markt.
I would say ninety percent of the people in my personality class are now women. There won’t be a damn man in university in ten years except in the stem fields and it’s a complete bloody catastrophe. And it’s a catastrophe for women because I don’t know where the hell you’re gonna find someone to marry and have a family with if this keeps happening. And you think when you’re nineteen, because you’re so clueless, it’s when your nineteen you don’t know a bloody thing. And you think “Well I’m not sure if I want children anyways” It’s like oh yeah, you can tell how well you’ve been educated. Jesus! Dismal! Dismal! Without fail I gotta tell you, I’ve watched women go through their professional careers, many, many of them. Its’ a very rare woman who at the age of thirty doesn’t consider having a child as their primary desire. And the ones that don’t consider that, generally, in my observation there’s something that isn’t quite right in the way they’re constituted and looking at the world .
ich glaube auch, dass eine 19jährige in den seltensten Fällen wirklich sicher sein kann, wie sie mit 30 über Kinder denken wird.
Sometimes you get women who are truly non maternal by temperament. They have a masculine temperament, disagreeable, they’re not particularly compassionate, they’re not that interested in kids, fair enough man. But there aren’t many of them and there’s plenty who will not admit to themselves that that’s what they most desperately want. Student: Do you think women would be better if they had kids or focused on their degree say in their 30’s. Peterson: Who knows? Like it really is a problem. Yeah it’s a real tough one. I don’t think anyone knows the answer to that because. (Student continues) Well, yeah. I can’t answer that. Because I’ve seen women do a good job of it both ways. And you get the odd woman who manages a high powered career are kids but Jesus, those women! They buy more powerful microwaves because it will take forty five seconds to cook the food instead of the minute. And I’m not kidding, it’s like the’re up at five, they exercise for half an hour, they make a big breakfast, they get their kids ready, they go to work, they work fourteen hour days, full bloody out, they come home and work for another two hours to get their kids organized they have a nanny to help them out then they work for two more hours before they go to bed at like one. And then they’re up at five and they do it again. And I tell ya, you better be tough if you’re gonna do that, physically too. Because you’ll just burn yourself to a crisp. I’ve seen some women manage, and they’re like, they’re tough and they’re rare. Because that’s a hell of a regimen. And if anything goes wrong. You know you have a sick kid or something like that, or there’s any sort of crisis in your family it’s just, then it becomes too much. And I don’t know the answer to that, I mean the advantage women have is they live about eight years longer than men and cause testosterone kills men…Well that that’s right.
Eine Frau, die trotz Kindern Karriere machen will, aber gleichzeitig auch mehr von den Kindern haben will als der klischeehafte Karrieremann, der das komplett an die Frau abgibt, wird eben eine „Zusatzbelastung“ haben (die sie nicht haben muss, aber die sie eben haben will).
They pay up front. And gain on the in the long run but how it isn’t clear how our society should sort this out, we don’t know. And it’s partly we don’t know what, do know now that women have control of their reproductive function. It’s a big mystery. (Question by student) Yep, yes well the thing is. Young stupid have the advantage of being young. Middle aged stupid people have the disadvantage of being middle aged. So if you’re gonna hire a young stupid person or a middle aged stupid person you’ll go for the young stupid person. And by stupid I mean, I’m being sarcastic obviously. I mean without experience and just getting started in the world. You’re much more likely to favor someone young because there’s an instant explanation for their relative cluelessness and it’s a problem. So I don’t know what the answer is. But one answer is, at least in part, start letting young women know what being thirty and being female is like and it’s to dispose them on the notion that there’s something magical about a career, first of all don’t have careers, man. They have jobs and the reason you get paid for a job because you’re being asked to do things you wouldn’t do unless you’d be paid. So it’s not some utopia of cigar smoking with your boots up on your desk not that that would be such a utopia to begin with!
In der Tat hilft es niemanden, wenn man die Arbeit hinter vieler dieser Positionen verschweigt und meint, dass sie ohne Einschränkungen umgesetzt werden können.