Guten Rutsch in das Jahr 2020!

Ich wünsche allen einen guten Rutsch ins neue Jahr, ich bedanke mich für viele Besuche, Diskussionen, Anregungen und viele neue Ideen, die durch euch in den Blog getragen worden sind, ob ich ihnen nun zustimme oder nicht.

Ohne meine Leser und Leute, die sich hier einbringen, würde das Bloggen bei weitem nicht so viel Spass machen.

Ich hoffe ich sehe euch alle im nächsten Jahr hier wieder!

Themen des Jahres 2019

Was waren für euch die Themen 2019?

Die Artikel, die dieses Jahr am meisten aufgerufen worden sind waren:

Einen Mann zum (besseren) Orgasmus bringen 26.470
„BRAVO: So fällst du Jungen auf“ (Flirttipps für Mädchen) 11.869
Mag sie mich oder ist sie nur nett? – Indikatoren für Interesse 11.025
„Er hat keine Gefuehle, will aber mit mir schlafen“ 10.105
„Fuckzone“: Einfach nur Sex, aber keine Beziehung/Freundschaft (Gegenstück zur Friendzone) 10.098
Wie schnell/oft bei einer Frau am Anfang melden? 9.804
Kastration und ihre Folgen 8.918
Wie vermeidet man die Friendzone? 7.947
Eingewöhnung in der Kinderkrippe 7.019
Wenn die Freundin mit einem anderen flirtet / schreibt 6.740
„Wie macht man einen Mann sexuell abhängig“ 6.577

Artikel aus diesem Jahr, die besonders oft aufgerufen worden sind waren etwa der Edeka-Spot  , Die Bento Autorin Lena, Der Klimawandel und das die Männer schuld sind und Frauen besonders betroffen darf auch nicht fehlen. Ebenso wenig, das es die alten weißen Männer sind, die Frauenfußball schauen. Das Erziehen von Söhnen im Feminismus war Thema, ebenso wie Truefruits. Lucas Schoppes Artikel zu den Problemen feministischer Positionen wurde auch stark diskutiert., ebenso wie Gillette und ihre Werbung zur toxischen Männlichkeit. Auch die Frage, wer eigentlich ein Nazi ist war gut besucht

Was waren aus eurer Sicht die Themen 2019?

Faulheit, Behäbigkeit und Bequemlichkeit als menschliche Eigenschaften

Bevor es mit den Neujahrsvorsätzen beginn t, lohnt es sich noch einmal einen Artikel zu den gern als schlechte Seiten bezeichneten Eigenschaften des Menschen zu machen. Hier soll es insbesondere um Faulheit, Bequemlichkeit und Behäbigkeit gehen.

 

Evolutionärer sind sie gut verständlich. Wenn man etwas nicht tun muss, dann spart das erst einmal Energie. genauso wenn man sich in den Zuständen einrichtet und wenn man den für einen selbst bequemen Weg geht.

Diese Eigenschaften bestehen natürlich nicht absolut. In gegenübersteht der Wunsch einen hohen Status zu erlangen, erfolgreich zu sein oder auch anderweitig eine hohe Position zu erreichen.

und natürlich stehen diese Eigenschaften auch gerne mit unserer Intelligenz in Konflikt, und zwar in der Hinsicht, dass wir sie überwinden müssen um einen besonderen Erfolg zu erzielen, also um etwa ein langfristiges Ziel zu erreichen. Hier geht es dann darum den sogenannten inneren schweinehund zu überwinden und sich aufzuraffen für ein abstraktes Ziel, dass man so vielleicht nicht so direkt vor Augen hat wie bei kurzfristigen Zielen.

Umso ungreifbare das Ziel, umso weiter entfernt es ist, umso weniger es bezüglich der Umsetzbarkeit für einen ohne weiteres erreichbar ist und auch umso eher ist nicht einem selbst direkten Vorteil bringt, sondern allenfalls indirekten , umso schwerer ist auch der Kampf gegen den inneren schweinehund. In einer Jäger und Sammler Gesellschaft war eben das Erreichen langfristiger abstrakter Ziele wesentlich weniger bedeutsam, so dass es unsere Denkweise nicht so gut entspricht und es daher Kraft fordert, solche Ziele umzusetzen.

sie eignen sich daher auch meiner Meinung nach ganz gut zum Verständnis der Biologie und ihre wirkungsweise in Abgrenzung zu Intelligenz im allgemeinen. wir sind gerne faul, wir geben gerne anderen getrieben nach, wir lassen uns auch gerne ablenken. Es erfordert häufig ein Gewissen Einsatz, sich dagegen durchzusetzen und nicht bequem zu sein.

Faulheit, Bequemlichkeit und andere Ausprägung dieser negativen Eigenschaften haben uns in unserer evolutionären Vergangenheit viele gute Dienste getan, eben weil Sie unnötige Energieverschwendung verhindert haben. Sie haben uns natürlich auch als Menschheit viel schlechtes getan, weil wir mit dem arbeitseinsatz von Ameisen oder anderen Tieren sicherlich noch weiter gekommen wären.

Evolution kann eben nicht in die Zukunft schauen und ein sesshaftes Leben führen wie erst seit relativ kurzer Zeit.

„So wird zum Beispiel „Männerfeindlichkeit“ als Diskriminierung auf eine Stufe mit Frauenfeindlichkeit, Rassismus und Homophobie gestellt“

Julian Dörr berichtet für die Süddeutsche über die „No Fap“ Bewegung. Dabei entdeckt er fürchterliches:

Die No-Fap-Bewegung ist also eine, die sich offenbar um das Wohlergehen und die Gesundheit von Männern sorgt. Wie bei so vielen von Männern dominierten Communitys dieser Art versammeln sich aber unter dieser Oberfläche auch Männerrechtler und andere frauenfeindliche und rassistische Gruppierungen mit Verbindungen zur Alt-Right-Bewegung.

Die Webseite von No Fap distanziert sich von solchem Gedankengut. Misogynie, Rassismus und andere pauschalisierende Aussagen seien in ihrer Community nicht erlaubt. Auffällig ist dabei jedoch, dass das Unternehmen in diesem Zusammenhang mit Begriffen arbeitet, wie sie sich sonst in der antifeministischen Männerrechtsbewegung finden lassen.

So wird zum Beispiel „Männerfeindlichkeit“ als Diskriminierung auf eine Stufe mit Frauenfeindlichkeit, Rassismus und Homophobie gestellt. Rhodes selbst war 2016 zu Gast im Podcast von Gavin McGinnes, einem ehemaligen Kopf der sogenannten „Proud Boys“. Die Proud Boys sind eine gewaltbereite Organisation, die sich ausschließlich aus Männern zusammensetzt und als neofaschistisch und rechtsextrem eingeschätzt wird. Zwei Jahre später bestritt Rhodes, von diesem Zusammenhang gewusst zu haben.

Möglichst viele Frauen rumkriegen

Die No-Fap-Community ist eine Bewegung, die zumindest in Teilen antisemitisch, rassistisch und frauenfeindlich ist – und die Follower auf der ganzen Welt hat. Auch im deutschsprachigen Internet finden sich No-Fap-Videos, in denen junge Männer Abstinenz predigen, um zu „Frauenmagneten“ zu werden. Am Ende geht es also nicht darum, dass es Männern besser geht, sondern darum, dass sie möglichst viele Frauen rumkriegen.

Schlimm, da stellen Leute alle Formen der Menschenfeindlichkeit auf eine Stufe und erkennen nicht an, dass Männer niemals oder sein können. Und dann wollen die auch noch Sex, diese schrecklichen haarigen Biester.

Mobbing

In Bekanntenkreis wurden ein paar Mobbingfälle berichtet und es kann dabei die These auf, dass es Leute gibt, die immer gemobbt werden oder zumindest ausgegrenzt, weil sie einfach komisch sind. Mitunter sind es Leute, die selbst zu Machtspielen neigen und bei denen man das Gefühl hat, dass sie hinter dem eigenen Rücken schlecht über einen reden oder auch nicht dann damit leben können, dass jemand noch andere Freunde hat etc.

Also im Endeffekt die These, dass viele gemobbte zu einem gewissen Teil selbst schuld sind oder dazu beitragen.

Sicher wird es auch immer wieder denjenigen geben, der einfach nicht in eine Runde passt oder dort die Machtverhältnisse stört ohne dass zu dies falsch wäre, aber zumindest die Leute, die in verschiedener Kreisen immer wieder gemobbt werden, werden irgendeinen Persönlichkeitsfehler haben.

Würdet ihr das auch so sehen?

Schönheitsmerkmale wie niedriger BMI und niedriges Tailien-Hüft-Verhältnis als Zeichen für einen hohen reproduktiven Wert bei Frauen

Eine interessante Studie zu bestimmten Schönheitsmerkmalen bei Frauen und deren evolutionärer Bedeutung:

Selection should favor mating preferences that increase the chooser’s reproductive success. Many previous studies have shown that the women men find most attractive in well-nourished populations have low body mass indices (BMIs) and small waist sizes combined with relatively large hips, resulting in low waist-hip ratios (WHRs). A frequently proposed explanation for these preferences is that such women may have enhanced health and fertility; but extensive evidence contradicts this health-and-fertility explanation. An alternative view is that men are attracted to signs of nubility and high reproductive value, i.e., by indicators of physical and sexual maturity in young women who have not been pregnant. Here we provide evidence in support of the view that a small waist size together with a low WHR and BMI is a strong and reliable sign of nubility. Using U.S. data from large national health surveys, we show that WHR, waist/thigh, waist/stature, and BMI are all lower in the age group (15-19) in which women reach physical and sexual maturity, after which all of these anthropometric measures increase. We also show that a smaller waist, in conjunction with relatively larger hips or thighs, is strongly associated with nulligravidity and with higher blood levels of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), a fatty acid that is probably limiting for infant brain development. Thus, a woman with the small waist and relatively large hips that men find attractive is very likely to be nubile and nulliparous, with maximal bodily stores of key reproductive resources.

Quelle: Evidence supporting nubility and reproductive value as the key to human female physical attractiveness

 

Nulligravidy bedeutet, dass sie noch keine Kinder hat.

Es wären demnach Anzeichen dafür, dass sie noch Kinderlos ist, was bedeutet, dass man keine Ressourcen auf fremde Kinder verwenden muss und das sie im „heiratsfähgien“ Alter ist. Dazu noch bestimmte Nährstoffe, die sich vorteilhaft auf den Nachwuchs auswirken.

Aus der Diskussion in der Studie:

Our findings support the prediction that human males will use anthropometric measures like WHR, waist/stature and BMI as indicators of nubility and reproductive value, and thus strongly supports the results of Andrews et al., 2017 who found that these measures were strongly related to assessments of reproductive value (youth and nulliparity) which was in turn strongly related to attractiveness.

In addition to predicting a preference for low WHRs and BMIs, the nubility hypothesis predicts that other characteristics associated with female nubility will be judged attractive; and there is some supporting evidence for several of these. Thus, studies show a strong male preference for neotenous facial features and younger faces (Alley, 1993; Collins & Missing, 2003; Cunningham, 1986; Furnham & Reeves, 2006; Henss, 1991; Ishi, Gyoba, Kamachi, Mukaida, & Akamatsu, 2004; Johnston & Franklin, 1993; Jones, 1995; Jones & Hill, 1993). In a recent study with American men as raters, female facial attractiveness was significantly negatively related to age despite the fact that the rated women ranged only from 18 to 26 years old (Wheatley et al., 2014). Three studies that included prepubertal faces have found a preference for faces younger than 15 (Fink, Grammer, & Matts, 2006; Jones, 1995; Röder, Fink, & Jones, 2013). Ratings of facial and body attractiveness are strongly correlated (Bleske-Rechek, Kolb, Stern, Quigley, & Nelson, 2014).
Also supporting the nubility hypothesis are associations of both nubility and attractiveness with lighter homogeneous complexions (Barankin, Silver, & Carruthers, 2002; Feinman & Gill, 1978; Fink et al., 2006; Fink, Grammer, & Thornhill, 2001), thicker lips (Gunn et al., 2009; Sforza et al., 2010), breasts which have just reached adult size and shape undisturbed by gravity or parity (Coe & Steadman, 1995; Marlowe, 1998), and more youthful higher-pitched female voices, (Awan, 2006; Feinberg, DeBruine, Jones, & Perrett, 2008; Fraccaro et al., 2011; Pipitone & Gallup Jr, 2008). In a clever and ambitious study, Fessler et al. (2005) concluded that a male preference for small foot size in women is also best understood as an indicator of youth and nulliparity since women’s foot size increases with age and parity. The nubility hypothesis also correctly predicts that in populations where nubile women have higher BMIs than older parous women due to maternal depletion, men will prefer women with the higher BMIs that locally indicate nubility (Sherry & Marlowe, 2007; Sugiyama, 2005; Yu & Shepard, 1998). Finally, the nubility hypothesis predicts that women past the age of nubility will be highly motivated to use artificial means to make themselves appear younger, which is consistent with the $16 billion American women spend each year on cosmetic surgery and the $8 billion per year spent on products which simulate youth.

As noted above, Symons (1995) suggested several reasons why a preference for female nubility would increase male fitness. Mating with a nubile female potentially captures all of her reproductive potential and eliminates competition between his children and prior children, increases the likelihood that she has kin for support, and increases the chance that she will survive to complete investment in his offspring. It also addresses the problem that older women will likely already be pregnant or lactating due to the preemptive mating strategies of his competitors (Marlowe, 2005; Roth & Xing, 1994; Strassmann, 1997; Symons, 1979, 1995).
The preference of human males for nubile females is plausibly related to a set of derived and adaptively associated human traits which differ from those of our close primate relatives: 1) Because human mating bonds are more durable, a man who pairs with a nubile woman increases his chance of reproducing with her in her more fertile years. 2) The extended alloparenting system of humans (Hill & Hurtado, 2009; Hrdy, 2009) makes the larger kin network of a younger (vs. older) female mates a more valuable asset in humans. 3) Paternal investment makes it more important for men to minimize exposure to prior offspring of a non-nubile woman. 4) The much larger brains of humans require proportionately more neurodevelopmental provisioning than do other primates. Women’s gluteofemoral fat depot is itself a highly derived trait (Pitts & Bullard, 1968; Pond, 1998), and is predictably drawn down by successive pregnancies (Lassek & Gaulin, 2006). This maternaldepletion makes nubile females the best brain provisioners in a way that would be considerably less relevant in smaller-brained apes.

Die Gründe dafür auf relativ junge Frauen zu stehen noch einmal etwas übersichtlicher:

  • 1) Because human mating bonds are more durable, a man who pairs with a nubile woman increases his chance of reproducing with her in her more fertile years.
  • 2) The extended alloparenting system of humans (Hill & Hurtado, 2009; Hrdy, 2009) makes the larger kin network of a younger (vs. older) female mates a more valuable asset in humans.
  • 3) Paternal investment makes it more important for men to minimize exposure to prior offspring of a non-nubile woman.
  • 4) The much larger brains of humans require proportionately more neurodevelopmental provisioning than do other primates. Women’s gluteofemoral fat depot is itself a highly derived trait (Pitts & Bullard, 1968; Pond, 1998), and is predictably drawn down by successive pregnancies

„Jungs, warum verlasst ihr euch beim Schenken so oft auf Mädchen“?

Die Jetzt, das Jugendmagazin der Süddeutschen hat bekanntlich die Rubrik, wo Jungs Mädchen fragen und diese antworten und umgekehrt.

Hier war kürzlich eine weihnachtliche Frage:

Weihnachtszeit ist Geschenkezeit. Für viele von uns bedeutet das, dass wir nicht nur für Eltern, Großeltern oder Geschwister Geschenke suchen, sondern auch noch eure Bescherung planen. Und damit meine ich nicht nur, euch zu beschenken. Sondern vor allem, dass wir oft die Geschenke kaufen, die ihr dann stolz eurer Mama oder eurem kleinen Bruder überreicht. Zugegeben, das ist ein Klischee, das bestimmt nicht auf alle von euch zutrifft, und auch nicht auf alle von uns. Aber kommt schon: Der Großteil der schönen und kreativen Präsente unterm Weihnachtsbaum oder auf dem Geburtstagstisch kommt eher von der weiblichen Seite.

Und das ist nicht nur in der Familie so, wenn Väter und Brüder auf uns zukommen und ganz unauffällig fragen, ob wir denn schon eine Idee für ein Geschenk für Mama oder Großtante Helga hätten. „Willst du was besorgen? Ich beteilige mich“, heißt es dann von euch. Auch im Freundeskreis beobachten wir das: Wir sind diejenigen, die die Whatsapp-Gruppen vor einer Geburtstagsparty nicht nur eröffnen, sondern auch mit Vorschlägen füllen, dann durch die Stadt hetzen, das Internet auf den Kopf stellen und das Ergebnis am Ende auch noch mit Schleifchen und schönem Geschenkpapier verpacken. Als hätten wir im Gegensatz zu euch Zeit dafür. Am Ende gebt ihr einfach einen Zehner dazu, setzt euren Namen unter die von uns liebevoll ausgesuchte und beschriebene Karte und seid fein raus. Wenn ihr überhaupt von selbst daran denkt und wir nicht auch noch hinter dem Geld herlaufen müssen.

Die Antwort:

erst gestern habe ich mit meiner Schwester telefoniert, um über Weihnachtsgeschenke zu reden. Seit es nicht mehr okay ist, seinen Verwandten voller Stolz ein Buntstift-Gekrakel oder ein selbstgebasteltes … Etwas … zu überreichen, haben wir die Abmachung, dass wir alles zusammen verschenken. Leider muss ich gestehen, dass bislang der Großteil der Ideen von meiner Schwester kam. Auch in diesem Jahr. Für Weihnachten brauchen wir sieben Geschenke. Fünf haben wir schon, vier Ideen kamen von ihr, eine von mir. Bei unserem gestrigen Telefonat war mein einzig brauchbarer Vorschlag einer, den meine Schwester vor gut einer Woche schon mal selbst geäußert hatte.

Und auch bei Gruppengeschenken kann ich die Erfahrung bestätigen, dass es meistens Frauen sind, die die „Geschenk für XY“-Whatsapp-Gruppe gründen und gute Ideen liefern. Die Männer sind unterdessen eher damit beschäftigt, sich möglichst schlechte Gag-Geschenke auszudenken.

Für einen Erklärungsversuch reise ich mal zurück in vergangene Teenager-Jahre, als mein Freundeskreis eigentlich ausschließlich männlich war. Gefeiert wurde viel, geschenkt umso weniger. Falls es doch mal etwas gab, dann hatte es irgendetwas mit Fußball zu tun. Erste, tatsächlich durchdachte Geschenke, zum Beispiel für die erste feste Freundin, wurden von den anderen Jungs meistens mit Häme bedacht.

Auch wenn Letzteres zum Glück nicht mehr so ist, der Umgang mit Geschenken innerhalb unseres männlichen Freundeskreises hat sich bis heute erhalten. Eigentlich gibt es am Geburtstag nichts und wenn dann doch mal etwas verschenkt wird, ist das nicht unbedingt von Kreativität geprägt: Fußballtrikot, Fußballtrikot, Schnaps, Playstation-Spiel, Fußballtrikot und, nicht zu vergessen, Fußballtrikot. 

Aber wir sind fein damit, nicht die ausgefallensten Geschenke zu bekommen. Deswegen treibt es uns auch heutzutage nicht die Schamesröte ins Gesicht, mit offensichtlich an der Tanke gekauften Last-Minute-Blumen bei einer Geburtstagsfeier aufzutauchen.

Finde ich einen interessanten Ansatz. Er geht so ungefähr in diese Richtung: Frauen haben eine andere Verbindung zu Geschenken. Sie sehen sie als etwas, was etwas über die Beziehung des Schenkenden zu dem Beschenkten aussagt, wie gut er ihn kennt und wie sehr er sich in ihn einfühlen kann und was er für ihn bedeutet.
Männer hingegen sehen Geschenke häufig eher praktisch: Was könnte er brauchen oder was macht ein passendes Geschenk, welches zumindest okay ist. Wenn ein Mann einem Freund was schenkt, dann ist es eher die Geste oder der Anständigkeit geschuldet, aber es rückt ihre Freundschaft nicht auf eine neue Ebene oder wird all zu tiefgründig hinterfragt werden.
Weswegen es auch häufig schwierig ist, etwas für eine Freundin zu kaufen, weil die Gefahr besteht, dass sie anhand des Geschenkes die Beziehung  neu bewertet oder ein Geschenk zu praktisch und nicht romantisch genug findet.
Das ist natürlich nur in der Tendenz und allenfalls für den Schnitt richtig, nicht absolut. Es mag auch in einer langjährigen Beziehung über den 30ern anders sein als in einer jungen Beziehung junger Leute.
Es würde aber auch erklären, warum man Frauen eher die Auswahl des Geschenks überlässt. Sie machen sich tiefgreifendere Gedanken dazu und weil sie auch bekannt dafür sind, dass sie das machen glaubt man ihnen vielleicht auch eher, dass sie sich etwas besonders dabei gedacht haben .
Natürlich ist das auch realtiv: Wenn die Tante sich etwas wünscht, dann werden die meisten Männer die Frage sicherlich gerne an Frauen abgeben. Welcher Spitzenbesatz ihr gefällt oder welchen Badezusatz man dort aussucht, da würde ich auch die Entscheidung weit lieber Frauen überlassen- Wenn ein Geschenk für den Onkel gekauft werden muss, dann kann man ja durchaus ein praktisches Geschenk aussuchen, was vielleicht für Männer schon wieder interessanter bzw einfacher ist.

Jordan Peterson’s Channel 4 Interview mit Cathy Newman – Vollständiges Transcript

In dem Interview von Cathy Newman mit Jordan Peterson stecken so viele gute Stellen, dass ich mir hier das Transscript, gestohlen von dieser Seite, selbst zu Weihnachten schenke:

Cathy Newman: Jordan Peterson you’ve said that men need to quote “grow the hell up.” Tell me why.

Jordan Peterson: Well because there’s nothing uglier than an old infant. There’s nothing good about it. People who don’t grow up don’t find the sort of meaning in their life that sustains them through difficult times and they are certain to encounter difficult times and they’re left bitter and resentful and without purpose and adrift and hostile and resentful and vengeful and arrogant and deceitful and of no use to themselves and of no use to anyone else and no partner for a woman and there’s nothing in it that’s good.

Newman: So you said… I mean, that sounds pretty bad… you are saying that there’s a crisis of masculinity. I mean, what do you do about it?

Peterson: You tell… you help people understand why it’s necessary and important for them to grow up and adopt responsibilities why that isn’t a shake your finger and get your act together sort of thing why it’s more like but why it’s more like a delineation of the kind of destiny that makes life worth living. I’ve been telling young men… but it’s not I wasn’t specifically aiming this message at young men to begin with it just kind of turned out that way.

Newman: And it’s mostly—you admit—it’s mostly men listening. I mean 90% of your audience is male, right?

Peterson: Well, it’s about 80 percent on YouTube which is a… YouTube is a male domain primarily, so it’s hard to tell how much of it is because YouTube is male and how how much of it is because of what I’m saying, but what I’ve been telling young men is that there’s an actual reason why they need to grow up, which is that they have something to offer, you know, that people have within them this capacity to set the world straight and that’s necessary to manifest in the world and that also doing so is where you find the meaning that sustains you in life.

Newman: So what’s gone wrong then?

Peterson: Oh god, all sorts of things have gone wrong. I think that… I don’t think that young men are here words of encouragement some some of them never in their entire lives as far as I can tell, that’s what they tell me, and the fact that the words that I’ve been speaking, the YouTube lectures that I’ve done and put online for example, have had such a dramatic impact is indication that young men are starving for this sort of message because, like why in the world would they have to derive it from a lecture on YouTube? Now they’re not being taught that it’s important to develop yourself.

Newman: It doesn’t bother you that your audience is predominantly male. Isn’t that a bit divisive?

Peterson: No, I don’t think so. I mean, it’s no more divisive than the fact that YouTube is primarily male and Tumblr is primarily female.

Newman: That’s pretty divisive, isn’t it?

Peterson: Tumblr is primarily female.

Newman: But you’re just saying that’s the way it is.

Peterson: I’m not saying anything. It’s just an observation that that’s the way it is. There’s plenty of women that are watching my lectures and coming to my talks and buy my books it’s just that the majority of them happen to be men.

Newman: What’s in it for the women, though?

Peterson: Well, what sort of partner do you want? Do you want an overgrown child? Or do you want someone to contend with, who is going to help you?

Newman: So you’re saying, that women have some sort of duty to help fix the crisis of masculinity.

Peterson: It depends on what they want. It’s exactly how I laid it out. Women want deeply men who are competent and powerful. And I don’t mean power in that they can exert tyrannical control over others. That’s not power. That’s just corruption. Power is competence. And why in the world would you not want a competent partner? Well, I know why, actually, you can’t dominate a competent partner. So if you want domination—

Newman: So you’re saying women want to dominate, is that what you’re saying?

Peterson: No, I’d say women who have had impaired their relationships with men, impaired and who are afraid of such relationships will settle for a weak partner because they can dominate them. But it’s a suboptimal solution.

Newman: Do you think that’s what a lot of women are doing?

Peterson: I think there’s a substantial minority of women who do that and I think it’s very bad for them. They’re very unhappy, it’s very bad for their partners–although the partners get the advantage of not having to take any responsibility.

Newman: What gives you the right to say that? I mean, maybe that’s how women want their relationships those women. I mean you’re making these vast generalizations.

Peterson: I’m a clinical psychologist.

Newman: Right so you’ve you’re saying you’ve done your research and women are unhappy dominating men.

Peterson: I didn’t say they were unhappy dominating men, I said it was a bad long-term solution

Newman: Okay, you said it was making them miserable.

Peterson: Yes it is. It depends on the time frame. There’s intense pleasure in momentary domination. That’s why people do it all the time. But it’s no formula for a long-term successful long-term relationship. That’s reciprocal. Any long-term relationship is reciprocal, firstly by definition.

Newman: Let me put it quite to you from the book where you say “there are whole disciplines in universities forthrightly hostile towards men. These are the areas of study dominated by the postmodern stroke neo-Marxist claim the Western culture in particular is an oppressive structure created by white men to dominate and exclude women.” But then I want to put you…

Peterson: Minorities too, dominate…

Newman: Okay, sure, but I want to put to you… here in the UK, for example, let’s say that as an example, the gender pay gap stands at just over 9%. You’ve got women at the BBC recently saying that the broadcaster is illegally paying them less than men to do the same job. You’ve got only seven women running the top footsie 100 companies.

Peterson: Hum.

Newman: So it seems to a lot of women that they still being dominated and excluded, to quote your words back to you.

Peterson: It does seem that way. But multivariate analysis of the pay gap indicate that it doesn’t exist.

Newman: But that’s not true, is it? That 9 percent pay gap, that’s a gap between median hourly earnings between men and women. That exists.

Peterson: Yes. But there’s multiple reasons for that. One of them is gender, but that’s not the only reason. If you’re a social scientist worth your salt, you never do a univariate analysis. You say women in aggregate are paid less than men. Okay. Well then we break its down by age; we break it down by occupation; we break it down by interest; we break it down by personality.

Newman: But you’re saying, basically, it doesn’t matter if women aren’t getting to the top, because that’s what is skewing that gender pay gap, isn’t it? You’re saying that’s just a fact of life, women aren’t necessarily going to get to the top.

Peterson: No, I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, either.

Newman: You’re saying that it’s a fact of life…

Peterson: I’m saying there are multiple reasons for it.

Newman: Yeah, but why should women put up with those reasons?

Peterson: I’m not saying that they should put up with it! I’m saying that the claim that the wage gap between men and women is only due to sex is wrong. And it is wrong. There’s no doubt about that. The multivariate analysis have been done. So I can give you an example––

Newman: I’m saying that nine percent pay gap exists. That’s a gap between men and women. I’m not saying why it exists but it exists. Now you’re a woman that seems pretty unfair.

Peterson: You have to say why it exists.

Newman: But do you agree that it’s unfair if you’re a woman…

Peterson: Not necessary

Newman: …and on average you’re getting paid nine percent less than a man that’s not fair, is it?

Peterson: It depends on why it’s happening. I can give you an example. Okay, there’s a personality trait known as agreeableness. Agreeable people are compassionate and polite. And agreeable people get paid less than disagreeable people for the same job. Women are more agreeable than men.

Newman: Again, a vast generalization. Some women are not more agreeable than men.

Peterson: That’s true. And some women get paid more than men.

Newman: So you’re saying by and large women are too agreeable to get the pay raises that they deserve.

Peterson: No, I’m saying that is one component of a multivariate equation that predicts salary. It accounts for maybe 5 percent of the variance, something like that. So you need another 18 factors, one of which is gender. And there is prejudice. There’s no doubt about that. But it accounts for a much smaller portion of the variance in the pay gap than the radical feminists claim.

Newman: Okay, so rather than denying that the pay gap exists, which is what you did at the beginning of this conversation, shouldn’t you say to women, rather than being agreeable and not asking for a pay raise, go ask for a pay raise. Make yourself disagreeable with your boss.

Peterson: Oh, definitely. But also I didn’t deny it existed. I denied that it existed because of gender. See, because I’m very, very, very careful with my words.

Newman: So the pay gap exists. You accept that. But you’re saying… I mean the pay gap between men and women exists—you’re saying it’s not because of gender, it’s because women are too agreeable to ask for pay raises.

Peterson: That’s one of the reasons.

Newman: Okay, one of the reasons… so why not get them to ask for a pay raise? Wouldn’t that be fairer way of proceeding?

Peterson: I’ve done that many, many, many times in my career. So one of the things you do as a clinical psychologist is assertiveness training. So you might say––often you treat people for anxiety, you treat them for depression, and maybe the next most common category after that would be assertiveness training. So I’ve had many, many women, extraordinarily competent women, in my clinical and consulting practice, and we’ve put together strategies for their career development that involved continual pushing, competing, for higher wages. And often tripled their wages within a five-year period.

Newman: And you celebrate that?

Peterson: Of course! Of course!

Newman: So do you do you agree that you would be happy if that pay gap was eliminated completely? Because that’s all the radical feminists are saying.

Peterson: It would depend on how it was eradicated and how the disappearance of it was measured.

Newman: And you’re saying if that’s at a cost of men, that’s a problem.

Peterson: Oh there’s all sorts of things that it could be at the cost of it. It could even be at the cost of women’s own interests.

Newman: Because they might not be happy if they could equal pay.

Peterson: No, because it might interfere with other things that are causing the pay gap that women are choosing to do.

Newman: Like having children.

Peterson: Well, or choosing careers that actually happen to be paid less, which women do a lot of.

Newman: But why shouldn’t women have the right to choose not to have children or the right to choose those demanding careers?

Peterson: They do. They can, yeah, that’s fine.

Newman: But you’re saying that makes them unhappy, by and large.

Peterson: I’m saying that… No, I’m not saying that, and I actually haven’t said that so far in the program…

Newman: You’re saying it makes them miserable, at the beginning.

Peterson: No, I said what was making them miserable was having part was having weak partners. That makes them miserableI would say that many women around the age of I would say between 28 and 32 have a career family crisis that they have to deal with and I think that’s partly because of the for short and timeframe that women have to contend with. Women have to get the major pieces of their life put together faster than men which is also partly why men aren’t under so much pressure to grow up. So because for the typical woman she has to have her career and family in order pretty much by the time she’s 35, because otherwise the options start to run out and so that puts a tremendous amount of stress on women especially at the end of their 20s.

Newman: I think I take issue with the idea of the typical woman because, you know, all women are different. I want to just put another quote to you from the book…

Peterson: No, they are different in some ways and the same same in others…

Newman: Okay, you say “women become more vulnerable when they have children”…

Peterson: Oh yes.

Newman: …and you talked to one of your YouTube interviews about “crazy harpy sisters”. So… simple question: is gender equality a myth in your view? is that something that’s just never gonna happen?

Peterson: It depends on what you mean by equality. If you mean men and women….

Newman: …getting the same opportunities…

Peterson: Fairly people… We could get to a point where people were treated fairly or more fairly. I mean people are treated pretty fairly in Western culture already. But we can improve that.

Newman: They are really not though, are they? I mean otherwise why would there only be seven women running footsie 100 companies in the UK? Why would there still be a pay gap which we’ve discussed? Why are women at the BBC saying that they’re getting paid illegally less the men to do the same job? That’s not fair, is it?

Peterson: Well, let’s go to the first question. They both are complicated questions. Seven women, repeat that one, there’s…

Newman: Seven women running the top footsie 100 companies in the UK. I mean, that’s no fair.

Peterson: Well, the first question might be… why would you want to do that?

Newman: Why would a man want to do it? It’s a lot of money, it’s an interesting job…

Peterson: There’s a certain number of men, although not that many, who are perfectly willing to sacrifice virtually all of their life to the pursuit of a high-end career. So they’ll work… these are men that are very intelligent; they’re usually very very conscientious,; they’re very driven; they’re very high-energy; they’re very healthy; and they’re willing to work 70 or 80 hours a week, non-stop, specialised at one thing to get to the top.

Newman: So you think women are just more sensible. They don’t want that because it’s not a nice level.

Peterson: I’m saying that’s part of it, definitely. And so I worked…

Newman: So you don’t think there are barriers in their way that prevent them getting to the top of those companies.

Peterson: There are some barriers, yeah, like… men for example, I mean, to get to the top of any organisation is an incredibly competitive enterprise and the men that you’re competing with are simply not going to roll over and say “please take the position”. It’s absolutely all-out warfare.

Newman: Let me come back to my question: Is gender equality a myth?

Peterson: I don’t know what you mean by the question. Men and women aren’t the same. And they won’t be the same. That doesn’t mean that they can’t be treated fairly.

Newman: Is gender equality desirable?

Peterson: If it means equality of outcome then it is almost certainly undesirable. That’s already been demonstrated in Scandinavia. Because in Scandinavia…

Newman: What do you mean by that? “Equality of outcome is undesirable.”

Peterson: Men and women won’t sort themselves into the same categories if you leave them to do it of their own accord. In Scandinavia it’s 20 to 1 female nurses to male, something like that–it might not be that extreme. And approximately the same male engineers to female engineers. That’s a consequence of the free choice of men and women in the societies that have gone farther than any other societies to make gender equality the purpose of the law. Those are ineradicable differences––you can eradicate them with tremendous social pressure, and tyranny, but if you leave men and women to make their own choices you will not get equal outcomes.

Newman: Right, so you’re saying that anyone who believes in equality, whether you call them feminists or whatever you want to call them, should basically give up because it ain’t going to happen.

Peterson: Only if they’re aiming at equality of outcome.

Newman: So you’re saying give people equality of opportunity, that’s fine.

Peterson: It’s not only fine, it’s eminently desirable for everyone, for individuals and for societies.

Newman: But still women aren’t going to make it. That’s what you’re really saying.

Peterson: It depends on your measurement techniques they’re doing just fine in medicine. In fact there are far more female physicians than there are male physicians. There are lots of disciplines that are absolutely dominated by women. Many, many disciplines. And they’re doing great. So…

Newman: Let me put something else to you from the book you say “the introduction of the equal pay for equal work argument immediately complicates even salary comparison beyond practicality for one simple reason: who decides what work is equal? It’s not possible”. So the simple question is: do you believe in equal pay?

Peterson: Well, I made the argument there. It’s like it depends on who defines them…

Newman: …so you don’t believe in equal pay…

Peterson: Ahahah! No, I’m not saying that at all!

Newman: Because a lot of people listening to you will just say, are we going back to the dark ages?

Peterson: That’s because you’re actually not listening, you’re just projecting what they think.

Newman: I’m listening very carefully, and I’m hearing you basically saying that women need to just accept that they’re never going to make it on equal terms—equal outcomes is how you defined it.

Peterson: No, I didn’t say that. I said that equal…

Newman: If I was a young woman watching that, I would go, well, I might as well go play with my Cindy dolls and give up trying to go school, because I’m not going to get the top job I want, because there’s someone sitting there saying, it’s not possible, it’s going to make you miserable.

Peterson: I said that equal outcomes aren’t desirable. That’s what I said. It’s a bad social goal. I didn’t say that women shouldn’t be striving for the top, or anything like that. Because I don’t believe that for a second.

Newman: Striving for the top, but you’re going to put all those hurdles in their way, as have been in their way for centuries. And that’s fine, you’re saying. That’s fine. The patriarchal system is just fine.

Peterson: No! I really think that’s silly! I do, I think that’s silly. I really do. I mean, look at your situation. You’re hardly unsuccessful.

Newman: Yeah, and I had to work hard to get where I got to.

Peterson: Exactly! Good for you!

Newman: That’s ok, battling is good. This is all about the fight.

Peterson: It’s inevitable.

Newman: But you talk about man fight. Let me just put another thing to you. You’re saying…

Peterson: Why would you have to battle for a high-quality position?

Newman: Well, I notice in your book you talk about real conversations between men containing, quote, “an underlying threat of physicality.”

Peterson: Oh there’s no doubt about that.

Newman: What about real conversation between women. Is that something… or are we sort of too amenable and reasonable.

Peterson: No, it’s just that the domain of physical conflict is sort of off-limits for you.

Newman: But you just said that I fought to get where I got… what does that make me, some sort of proxy man or something?

Peterson: I don’t imagine that you… Yeah, to some degree I suspect you’re not very agreeable. So that’s the thing. Successful women–

Newman: I’m not very agreeable…

Peterson: Right, I noticed that actually in this conversation! And I’m sure it served your career well.

Newman: Successful women, though, basically have to wear the trousers, in your view. They have to sort of become men to succeed. Is it what you’re saying?

Peterson: Well, if they are going to compete against men, certainly masculine traits are going to be helpful. I mean, one of the things I do in my counseling practice, for example, when I’m consulting with women who are trying to advance their careers, is to teach them how to negotiate and to be able to say no and to not be easily pushed around. And to be formidable. If you’re gonna be successful you need to be smart, conscientious and tough.

Newman: Well, here’s a radical idea. Why don’t the bosses adopt some–male bosses shall we say–adopt some female traits so the women don’t have to fight and get their sharp elbows out for the pay rises. It’s just accepted if they’re doing the same job they get the same pay!

Peterson: Well, I would say partly because it’s not so easy to determine what constitutes the same job and…

Newman: That’s because, arguably, there are still men dominating our industries, our society and therefore they’ve dictated the terms for so long that women have to battle to be like the men.

Peterson: No, it’s not true. It’s not true. So, for example…

Newman: Where is the evidence?

Peterson: I can give you an example very quickly. I worked with women who worked in high-powered law firms in Canada for about 15 years and they were as competent and put together as anybody you would ever meet. And we were trying to figure out how to further their careers. And there was a huge debate in Canadian society at that point that was basically ran along the same lines as your argument. If the law firms didn’t use these masculine criteria then perhaps women would do better. But the market sets the damn game. It’s like…

Newman: And the market is dominated by men.

Peterson: No, it’s not. The market is dominated by women. They make 80 percent of the consumer decisions. That’s not the case at all. 80 percent…

Newman: If you talk about people who stay at home looking after children, by and large they are still women. So they’re going out doing the shopping. But that is changing.

Peterson: They make all the consumer decisions. The market is driven by women, not men.

Newman: Right.

Peterson: Ok, and if you’re a lawyer in Canada…

Newman: And they still pay more for the same sort of goods. That’s been proven. That men, for the… you buy a blue bicycle helmet, it’s gonna cost less than a pink one. Anyway, we’ll come on to that.

Peterson: It’s partly because men are less agreeable. Because they won’t put up with it.

Newman: I want to ask you: is it not desirable to have some of those female traits you’re talking about–I’d say that’s a generalization, but you’ve used the words female traits–is it not desirable to have some of them at the top of business. I mean, maybe they wouldn’t…

Peterson: They don’t predict success in the workplace. The things that predict success in the workplace are intelligence and conscientiousness. Agreeableness negatively predicts success in the workplace. And so does high negative emotion.

Newman: So you are saying that women aren’t intelligent enough to run these top companies?

Peterson: No, I didn’t say that at all.

Newman: You said that female traits don’t predict success.

Peterson: But I didn’t say that intelligence wasn’t. I didn’t say that intelligence and conscientiousness weren’t female traits…

Newman: Well, you were saying that intelligence and conscientiousness by implication are not female traits.

Peterson: No, no. I’m not saying that at all!

Newman: Are women less intelligent than men?

Peterson: No, they’re not. No, that’s pretty clear. The average IQ for a woman and the average IQ for a man is identical. There is some debate about the flatness of the distribution. Which is something that James D’Amore pointed out, for example, in his memo. But there’s no difference at all in general cognitive ability. There’s no difference to speak of in conscientiousness. Women are a bit more orderly than men and men are a little bit more industrious than women. The difference isn’t big.

Newman: Feminine traits. Why are they not desirable at the top?

Peterson: It’s hard to say. I’m just laying out the empirical evidence. We know the traits that predict success.

Newman: But we also know because companies by and large have not been dominated by women over the centuries. We have nothing to compare it to. It’s an experiment.

Peterson: True. And it could be the case that if companies modified their behavior and became more feminine they would be successful. But there’s no evidence for it.

Newman: You seem doubtful about that.

Peterson: I’m not neither doubtful nor non doubtful. There’s no evidence for it.

Newman: So why not give it a go as the radical evidence…

Peterson: Because the evidence suggests… Well, it’s fine. If someone wants to start a company and make it more feminine and compassionate, let’s say, and caring in its overall orientation towards its workers and towards the marketplace, that’s a perfectly reasonable experiment to run. My point is that there is no evidence that those traits predict success in the workplace and there’s evidence…

Newman: Because it’s never been tried.

Peterson: Well, that’s not really the case. Women have been in the workplace for at least–ever since I’ve been around the representation of women in the workplace has been about 50 percent. So we’ve run the experiment for a fairly reasonable period of time. But certainly not for centuries.

Newman: Let me move on to another debate that’s been very controversial for you. You got in trouble for refusing to call trans men and women by their preferred personal pronouns.

Peterson: No, that’s not actually true. I got in trouble because I said I would not follow that compelled speech dictates of the federal and provincial government. I actually never got in trouble for not calling anyone anything.

Newman: Right. You wouldn’t follow the change of law which was designed to outlaw discrimination.

Peterson: No. Well, that’s what it has been said it was design to do.

Newman: Okay. You cited freedom of speech in that. Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a trans person’s right not to be offended?

Peterson: Because in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive. I mean, look at the conversation we’re having right now. You’re certainly willing to risk offending me in the pursuit of truth. Why should you have the right to do that? It’s been rather uncomfortable.

Newman: Well, I’m very glad I put you on this part…

Peterson: You get my point. You’re doing what you should do, which is digging a bit to see what the hell is going on. And that is what you should do. But you’re exercising your freedom of speech to certainly risk offending me, and that’s fine. More power to you, as far as I’m concerned.

Newman: So you haven’t sat there and… I’m just… I’m just trying to work that out… I mean… [long pause]

Peterson: Ha! Gotcha!

Newman: You have caught me. You have caught me. I’m trying to work that up through my head… yeah I took a while… it took a while…

Peterson: It did, it did, yeah.

Newman: You have voluntary co… you have voluntarily come into the studio and agreed to be questioned. A trans person in your class has come to your class and said they want to be called “she”.

Peterson: No, that’s never happened. And I would call them “she.”

Newman: So you would. So you’ve kind of changed your tune of line.

Peterson: No. No, no, I said that right from the beginning. What I said at the beginning was that I was not going to cede the linguistic territory to radical leftists, regardless of whether or not it was put in law. That’s what I said. An then the people who came after me said “oh you must be transphobic and you’d mistreat a student in your class.” It’s like, I never mistreated a student in my class, I’m not transphobic and that isn’t what I said.

Newman: Well it said you’ve also called trans campaigners authoritarian. Isn’t that…

Peterson: Only in the broader context of my claims that radical leftist ideologues are authoritarian. Which they are.

Newman: You are saying someone who’s trying to work out their gender identity, who may well have struggled with that, who had quite though time over the years, you’re comparing them with, you know, Chairman Mao, who saw…

Peterson: No, just the activists.

Newman: …the deaths of millions of people. Well, even if the activists, you know, they’re trans people too. They have a right to say these things…

Peterson: Yeah, but they don’t have the right to speak for whole community.

Newman: … to compare them to Chairman Mao, you know, Pinochet, Augusto Pinochet, I mean… you know, this is grossly insensitive.

Peterson: I didn’t compare them to Pinochet…

Newman: Well, he was an autoritarian…

Peterson: …I did compare them to Mao… He’s a right-winger though. I was comparing them to the left-wing totalitarians and I do believe they are left-wing totalitarians…

Newman: Under Mao millions of people die. I mean, there’s no comparison between Mao and a trans activist, is there.

Peterson: Why not?

Newman: Because trans activist aren’t killing millions of people.

Peterson: The philosophy that’s guiding their utterances is the same philosophy.

Newman: The consequences are…

Peterson: Not yet.

Newman: You’re saying that trans activists could lead to the deaths of millions of people?

Peterson: No, I’m saying that the philosophy that drives their utterances is the same philosophy that already has driven us to the deaths of millions of people.

Newman: Okay, tell us how that philosophy is in any way comparable.

Peterson: Sure, that’s no problem. The first thing is that their philosophy presumes that group identity is paramount. That’s the fundamental philosophy that drove the Soviet Union and Mao is China. And it’s the fundamental philosophy of the left-wing activists. It’s identity politics. Doesn’t matter who you are as an individual, it matters who you are in terms of your group identity.

Newman: You’re just saying so to provoke, aren’t you? I mean, you are a provocateur.

Peterson: I never say say anything…

Newman: You’re like the old right that you hate to be compared to. You want to stir things up.

Peterson: I’m only a provocateur insofar as when I say what I believe to be true it’s provocative. I don’t provoke. Maybe for humor.

Newman: You don’t set out to provoke.

Peterson: I’m not interested in provoking.

Newman: What about the thing about, you know, fighting and the lobster. Tell us about the lobster.

Peterson: Ha, well that’s quite a segue! Well, the first chapter I have in my book is called “Stand up straight with your shoulders back” and it’s an injunction to be combative, not least to further your career, let’s say. But also to adopt a stance of ready engagement with the world and to reflect that in your posture. And the reason that I write about lobsters is because there’s this idea that hierarchical structures are a sociological construct of the Western patriarchy. And that is so untrue that it’s almost unbelievable. I use the lobster as an example: We diverged from lobsters evolutionary history about 350 million years ago. Common ancestor. And lobsters exist in hierarchies. They have a nervous system attuned to the hierarchy. And that nervous system runs on serotonin, just like our nervous system do. The nervous system of the lobster and the human being is so similar that anti-depressants work on lobsters. And it’s part of my attempt to demonstrate that the idea of hierarchy has absolutely nothing to do with socio-cultural construction, which it doesn’t.

Newman: Let me get this straight. You’re saying that we should organize our societies along the lines of the lobsters?

Peterson: I’m saying it is inevitable that there will be continuities in the way that animals and human beings organize their structures. It’s absolutely inevitable, and there is one-third of a billion years of evolutionary history behind that … It’s a long time. You have a mechanism in your brain that runs on serotonin that’s similar to the lobster mechanism that tracks your status—and the higher your status, the better your emotions are regulated. So as your serotonin levels increase you feel more positive emotion and less negative emotion.

Newman: So you’re saying like the lobsters, we’re hard-wired as men and women to do certain things, to sort of run along tram lines, and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Peterson: No, I’m not saying there’s nothing we can do about it, because it’s like in a chess game, right, there’s lots of things you can do, although you can’t break the rules of the chess game and continue to play chess. Your biological nature is somewhat like that, it sets the rules of the game, but within those rules you have a lot of leeway. But one thing we can’t do is say that hierarchical organisation is a consequence of the capitalist patriarchy, it’s like that’s patently absurd. It’s wrong. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s seriously wrong.

Newman: Aren’t you just whipping people up into a state of anger?

Peterson: Not at all.

Newman: Divisions between men and women. You’re stirring things up. Any critics of you online get absolutely lambasted by your followers.

Peterson: And by me generally.

Newman: Sorry, your critics get lambasted by you? I mean, isn’t that irresponsible?

Peterson: Not at all. If an academic is gonna come after me and tell me that I’m not qualified and that I don’t know what I’m talking about… I can seriously…

Newman: So you are not going to say to your followers now “quit the abuse, quit the anger.”

Peterson: Well, we need some substantial examples of the abuse and the anger before I could detail that question.

Newman: There’s a lot out there.

Peterson: Well, let’s take a more general perspective on that. I have had 25,000 letters since June–something like that–from people who told me that I’ve brought them back from the brink of destruction. And so I’m perfectly willing to put that up against the rather vague accusations that my followers are making the lives of people that I’ve targeted miserable.

Newman: Jordan Peterson, thank you.

Peterson: My pleasure nice talking with you.